Viewing a thread - Generator Questions/opinions

jcs

Posted 1/9/ 22:54 (#)
Subject: Generator Questions/opinions

You will get efficient and thoughtful service from Dingbo.

Oklahoma

After going through several short spells with out power, seeing the folks in the plains without it, and figuring I am due for a spell of my own, I have been looking at purchasing a generator to run the well and a few household appliances. The primary reason behind all this is to get water to livestock which is all well dependant. Recently my dad and I had discussed buying a Welder/Generator (Ranger 8 or Bobcat) but finally decided that was a want and not a need. So I am wondering about something between - watts with 120 and 240 cap.

So far in looking, all the generator brands appear to be the same size and shape just different name on it and different prices for the name. Is their any of them to specifically avoid (one mid size has a Subaru engine where all the others have Briggs engines)?

Am I stupid for thinking about running a crackerbox welder off a generator this size if it has 220? It isn't like we are pipelining with it.

Thanks davpal

Posted 1/10/ 02:07 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Generator Questions/opinions

Mid Michigan

I have been in this same situation for almost a year now. After losing our power in michigan at least five times this summer and last winter I swore it would be the last time without a generator and here I am still without one. I have researched them extensively and have noticed a few things. I was thinking I would get a portable diesel model but most of them are chinese and I didn't want to do that. I have found only Yanmar and Kubota, and Yamaha for the most part make good diesel portables. But they are very pricey. If you get one with a briggs or other gasser they are really loud and use quite a bit of gas. I thought for a while I would get a pto unit for my 9n but that hasn't totally got me convinced that is the way to go either. So I am still waiting for the right one to come along. I have been checking out some of the honda powered ones too. It is not as easy as you might think to get the right one. I think most of the time we buy one in a panic at the home depot and get what it takes to get the power back on. I do know I have to get one soon though, don't want to have flooded basement or cold house. WYDave

Posted 1/10/ 02:41 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Generator Questions/opinions

Wyoming

Well, since no one else has piped up I will.

My opinion of gas-powered, RPM generators under 10KW is low. Very low. Since I'm one of a very few EE's within a 100 mile radius here in central Nevada, I get to see more than my share of people living "off the grid" for various lengths of time and their experiences with 5 to 8KW gensets. The way I get to meet these people is that they ask someone, who knows someone, who knows me. Next thing I know, I'm getting a plaintive call (from a cell - always) from someone out on some remote property and they have no power, because their genset won't work, they're in a bind, and could I please help them?

Sigh. OK. Trudge out there and the genset is burned up. Almost always.

Their experience with these units is almost uniformly bad, regardless of the engine. The engine, in fact, has never been the problem on the units dragged into my shop. It is always the stator or the electronic voltage regulation package. I rather expect that the electrical end of these units will always be the problem. They're not sized to take any overload for any length of time, so putting an arc welder on the output of this type of generator would be a Really Bad Idea in my estimation.

Most all these people wanted to get by as cheaply as possible. Most all of these folks run into some situation sooner or later where they're trying to start larger motor loads at night (so they have some background load on the genset) and the next morning, they find they have let all the magic smoke out of the genset.

My advice is always the same: spend more and get a generator that is intended to actually be used. Most of these light-duty, 5 to 8KW gensets are meant for occasional light use, to run a couple of small power tools on a contractor's site until they have the street power roughed in, and then they're not used too much until the next job. They're not meant to run day after day, they're not meant to start big inductive (motor) loads, and the manufacture usually expects you to take it back to the dealer to get it repaired. Since the stator on most of these units will run you about $700 to $800, and the labor to take the old one off and put the new one on and test it will run about 2 hours, you'll be lucky to get out of the dealership for $1K when you burn up the stator windings. Since the wretched things cost about $ to $ new, burn it up twice and you've doubled the cost of the unit.

I know this probably isn't what you wanted to hear, but that's my direct experience with these wretched little beasts.

FWIW, here's what I consider a "real" generator to run a house and domestic well pumps on a farm for days on end (as I'm sure some of the folks in Colorado and Nebraska are doing just now):

12+ kW, diesel or larger gas (ie, 2 cylinder) engine, turning the generator at RPM, not RPM. A big enough fuel tank to keep the generator going for at least 24 hours. Electric start. Something that is easy to work on, relatively low-tech. I've seen used and military surplus units that fit this criteria under $3K, when I'm keeping my eye peeled for someone. New or in "new, reconditioned", I see units fitting this description from $ to $.

If you have a smaller utility tractor, you might want to look at a PTO-driven unit to stay within your price range, yet get enough power to run what you need to run. Or if you're really handy, buy a generator "head", build up a frame on a trailer, go find a small Detroit or Perkins engine and glue 'em together.

Or, keep your eye peeled for a used Ranger/Bobcat welder. Better yet, keep your eye peeled for a used Trailblazer welder. You'll end up spending about as much as you'd spend for a new 10 to 12KW genset, you'll have a 8 to 10KW genset and a welder instead. My only beef with the Bobcat/Ranger/Trailblazer units is that they run at RPM. But they seem built heavy enough to carry the load on an ongoing basis.

As for what we have (ie, do I talk my walk?): We have a Multiquip 25 genset on a trailer. This is a 25 kVA genset that can deliver 15kW in single phase (120/240) or 25kW in 230/460 3-phase. It has enough fuel tank capacity to run for 3 days without refueling. The genset runs at RPM, with very good voltage regulation, powered by a 4-cyl Izusu C240 diesel. Electric start with glow plugs, no turbocharger. Cost us $10K used with about hours on it. Is so quiet that you can barely hear it 100 yards away from inside the house. There was one week after a thunderstorm that took out our pole transformer and switchgear that we lived off that genset for a week. No big deal, change the oil when we were done, put it back in the shop and wait until the next time we needed it.

 

 

Edited by NVDave 1/10/ 02:48

Franz©

Posted 1/10/ 03:22 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Generator Questions/opinions

In the intrest of saving some wear on my fingers, I'm gonna agree with Dave, Mostly.

Gensets are gensets, and welders are welders. The two just ain't interchangable, and combination units, even the Trailblazer, are poor quality gensets.

After a whole lot of years running sets around the world, the first thing I'll say is most important in any set is SPEED. rpm machines are the worst possible investment. In the future, very near future, you'll need the set, and you'll need it for a long time, thanks to every PoCo in the country following the Montana Power Model. There isn't a rpm set made by Coleman, GeneCRAP, Crapball Housfeld, PorterCrappy, or anybody else that is more than a 300 hour life design machine. Divide the price by 300, and that will be your cost per hour to operate, + fuel. Take what you save, and buy earmuffs, cases of oil, and sparkplugs, cause yer gonna need em all.

rpm machines will have minimally 3 times the working life. They have more mass rotating, and can better absorb a load coming onto the set. They also have a lot less wear on the engine and better bearings. They run a lot cooler, and since they are generally manufactured by a real genset manufacturer, will have cooling on the generator end.

Stay away from BRUSHLESS. Most people making small brushless sets are making junk. Brushes last for thousands of hours in an alternator, especially one turning rpm, and when you leave a brush type machine sit for 6 months, you can reexcite it in the dark with a battery and 2 wires.

Electric start is a necessity, I don't care who you are, the damn rope always breaks when you need the genset most, and you can pretty much always jump a genset with a pickup.

Forget fuel savings from self idlers, unless the only place you'll use the machine is to run carpentry tools building new houses. There are way too many frequency dependant devices in your house, and you won't save much fuel.

PEAK and SURGE ratings are pure advertising crap from the geniuses who oversold air compressors till they got busted. All they indicate is the ability of the engine to handle load for half a second, till the engine stalls. If the machine has a PEAK rating on the decal, the machine is junk.

Also forget all those convenient sizing charts on line and at the store. You won't be running everything at once anyhow, and your electric bill gives you a lot more accurate information on your true electric use.

Fuel- forget NG, it won't be available during any major event. Propane is nice, if you have it in sufficient quantity. Diesel is nice, and you probably have that on hand. Gasoline is the worst choice for a lot of reasons, including storage life.

If I were buying a new set today, my number 1 choice would be Kubota, followed by Yanmar. I would NOT buy or depend on a Honda because they are playing too many games in the genset business, including their DC sets with inverters built in. On top of that, there are too many Honda looking sets being marketed using Chinese fake engines.

Now Dave, about running welders from gensets, we need to have a talk. 99% of the time welders are run at half of their output amperage, so they draw around 20 amps. Even a 6kw rpm noisebox genset with a 100 watt bulb hooked to it for a static load will handle a Lincoln or Miller buzbox putting out 115 amps. MIG machine power supplys are a little different situation running off gensets, and I don't really recommend doing that. Inverter power supply welders, good luck, yer gonna need plenty since the welder is highly dependant on stable input power frequency.

Then again, I could be wrong, my ONAN CCK was built in , and still runs like a Swiss watch and powers 2 houses. Tha backup for that is a Kohler, and it purrs nice too. WYDave

Posted 1/10/ 03:33 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Generator Questions/opinions

Wyoming

Then again, I could be wrong, my ONAN CCK was built in , and still runs like a Swiss watch and powers 2 houses. Tha backup for that is a Kohler, and it purrs nice too.

OK, Franz, quiz time:

1. What type of components will you not find in electrical equipment of that vintage?

Hint: Anything made with silicon. The transistor had just been invented in , and the first commercially viable small germanium transistors for small signals were coming out in . In other words, you didn't see solid state components common today in the voltage regulation boards in gensets back then. And modern flimsy silicon components don't like what? How about those nasty transients that get flung all over the place by arc welding?

2. When those were made, copper cost what? And the manufacture therefore didn't have a direct economic incentive to scrimp on the copper windings because... ?

You're old enough and grouchy enough to lecture a young punk like me on this very issue that "they don't make 'em like they used to." Matter of fact, I seem to recall you harrumphing and grousing about this very sort of thing with respect to modern welders vs. old welders, even Lincolns, yea?

Tom Russell

Posted 1/10/ 06:39 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: Re: Generator Questions/opinions

McLeod County Minnesota

McLeod County Minnesota

You already have some very good replies so I will merely tell you what I have.

A 4kw Briggs powered generator that will keep a few lights on, the well running, along with a refrigerator and freezer. The trick is to make sure everything mentioned above doesn&#;t decide to turn on at the same time. This machine came from Northern.

I also have a 20kw PTO generator (Winco brand) that we use when power is off for any length of time. I just finished putting this baby on a new trailer so we could move it easier.

Make sure your electrical service has a double throw switch so you don&#;t get in deep doo-doo when you flip the switch on your new generator and fry some poor unsuspecting power company lineman.
jcs

Posted 1/10/ 08:25 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Thanks to all

Oklahoma

Thanks for the info, may not have been what I was wanting to hear but glad I asked.

Have toyed with the idea of piecing one together as mentioned. With the oil boom here the welders/generators and similar products are bringing a premium (at least all the places I have looked). May just sit tight alittle longer and wait for the boom to bust and try to pick something up used.

Thanks again, answered alot of questions.

Fighting suburbia NC

Posted 1/10/ 09:10 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: Older Onan if you can find/afford one

Too close to Raleigh, NC

Too close to Raleigh, NC

Neither are a diesel (I wish) but the 2 Onans I have around are what I would call robust. The one in our Winnebago is a watt that sits all year and makes one trip to Spring Charlotte each year - the genset is the only thing on that beast that hasn't give us trouble. The other is a 6.5Kw ex-milk truck unit of dubious vintage that happened to come along in a "deal" (hey, $100 for a running, albeit oil-leaking, monster like that was too good to pass up) that sits around waiting for the occasional need for non-grid power.

rpm gas motors will easily outlast the rpm screamers (got one of them, too). Honda-powered generators are probably the best running/smoothest/least annoying choice but they will cost you a bunch. My 5.5Kw ice storm Home Despot special Coleman with a Briggs I/C is OK for short periods of time but gets on that last nerve fairly quickly even with ear plugs. I have to agree with Franz on the MIG use - I will now finally admit to welding an entire front end back on a Chevy Cavalier some years ago using only a little watt Generac and a flux-cored wire Daytona MIG for a friend out on his farm where there was no electricity anywhere near. Would I do it again - NO! But it did get the car back on the road for him at a time he needed wheels that got good mileage. Not the prettiest weld but it held together for three years until the car got totalled in the rear. Sometimes you do what have to with what you have at hand.

If you go bigger than about 8Kw you will have to get an electric start. Unless you are a healthy size with good shoulders even a 6.5Kw can be a chore to pull start. The older I get the more I dislike pull start anything. If you have a tractor with a good (stable) governor then a PTO unit can be a good choice. If I ever buy another one it will get hung on the back of the Leyland - no need for another motor to take care of if you have a good tractor. YMMV. Franz©

Posted 1/10/ 12:01 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Gee Dave

"You're old enough and grouchy enough to lecture a young punk like me on this very issue "
Are they still teaching young electrical engineering students about that little incident back in 68, when I chained a Jr Engineering Officer to the exciter end of a CAT at CamRahn? I figured that story should have faded out of memory by now.

Onan became real famous for screwing the CCK models into the ground withthose solid state voltage regulators after producing the one I own. Actually, the only solid state device on my machines are some stacked square washers coated with varnish.

As far as transients from welders, they are nothing compared to the crap thrown back onto a line by a microwave oven. Even my 600 watt microwave can make that ONAN wonder for a few seconds.

Back in 91, we had an ice storm here, resulting in a 13 day outage to full restoration. It was so bad they even dragged my antiquated posterior into service, seems they were running short of modern conveniences, and needed the people who remembered how to before. I have specific recollection of getting on the radio and asking if they wanted me to start winding Western Union splices since no more splices would be forthcoming from the warehouse. The answer was simple and to the point, since I remembered how to, do it, because the old coot in the warehouse sure wasn't comin out to do it for me. Since then, my PoCo has followed the Montana Power Model, and has all college educated "linemen" who are real good at sitting lookin at a broken wire with no damn idea how to hang it back up without the proper sized pickle. I'm officially too old to know anything according to management, so I get to sit here watching the surrounding DARK from my well lighted farm, and listen to the screaming generators off in the distance. I like sitting and watching.

I even enjoy a number of the "modern" conveniences and can spend hours wondering how they did it, and why the hell they bothered, because we had better years ago. There are moments when I glance into the sky and wonder what the hell makes that bluetooth hanging from everyone's ear necessary? Hell, I came to detest the IMTS head sitting on the transmission hump of my pickup after a couple years, and be happy when I was out of the truck and couldn't hear it ring. The best part of that was unless the person calling knew where I was, and had a tower book, they couldn't dial my truck directly.

I watched Capstone Turbine come and pass into oblivion, wonderful idea, but the technology got pushed too far too fast, and a lot of good people lost a lot of money. I figure that's just what they call progress. At least the "engineers" got paid for doing another halfa$$ed job, and that's important even though they set real progress back 10 years. I've watched other companys, like Dranetz, make real solid progress, and represent it truthfully, only to be ignored, because they weren't touting the popular song. Today, every killowatt generated in NY, little as it is, is managed by a clown sitting behind a computer in Albany, who couldn't crank a Gibson Girl if his life depended on it. Even though he has the ability to limit a blackout, he won't, because he has no real experience. By the time he reads the instructions, it will be too late, and restoration will take 3 times longer than it should. The last station with a house generator in upstate NY will come off line later this year, because the polution credits can be sold for more Dollars than the owner can make selling power from that station in the next 10 years. Within months of the shutdown, the entire station will be for sale on the internet, listed as state of the art, which it is, and the public will take another screwing thanks to the Green People who exist with their head up their a$$, and make plenty of noise.

There are more days every week when I feel like dialing it back, selling off acres, and just laughing. I'm sure glad the brilliant young bucks have taken over, and have everything under control. I probably won't last long enough to see the collapse that is coming. In the meantime, I just pass along what I can to those who are willing to learn, and laugh at those who know everything already. Some days it's fun being an old fool. Funny how all those old fools built the world the brilliant young bucks grew up in, the old fools didn't know anything. Tom Graham

Posted 1/10/ 12:16 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: Franz, what do you mean by

Henderson, Minnesota

the Montana Power Model? Greg Stremel

Posted 1/10/ 13:00 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: 3 questions

Southwest Missouri

How much damage will generators do to computers and TVs?

We have a PTO unit that we have run at Mom and Dad's during power outages since I bought it 25 -30 years ago. We use a meter to set the tractor RPM so that it produces 115 volts. We have not burned up anything yet, but have not run computers.

At my house, I have a unit a bank repoed and sold to me. It has a White diesel and KATO power generator. It was surplus from some airforce base. It has a 175 amp breaker. I set it up in an old chicken house. It is permanently wired. I put in a double pole double throw switch at the meter. I even have diesel fuel in it.

In two years, I have never run a load. It has a "resistive load bank" that does not work, I was told to "exercise" the generator.

1. The control panel shows 61 hertz when it is running. Is this close enough to 60 to be ok?

2. Will I do major damage to computers and TVs?

3. What is the best way to make sure that this rig is ready to go when needed? I usually start it every few months and let it run 30 minutes.

We also have a Lincoln Ranger 8 on our welding trailer. I works great for welding repairs at the field and running power tools, lights, and air compressor at the field. Would it be wise to use this for any emergency power outages?

Thanks for any advice.
WYDave

Posted 1/10/ 13:27 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: 3 questions

Wyoming

61 Hertz is OK. The problems start when your genset goes lower in frequency. Transformers and motors start to get hot.

As you go higher in frequency, some of your clocks that use the line frequency for their reference will run fast. eg, the old clocks that have a little synchronous motor in them.

Damage to electronic devices: I recommend in rural areas that everyone put their computers and high-priced electronics on floating battery UPS systems. It costs money, yes, but then when the power goes out for whatever reason, you have protection. When you bring up a genset to power the house, if the power doesn't meet specifications, you're protected.

Gensets can have poor regulation of voltage when you start bringing loads on/off of them that are a substantial portion of the genset's capacity, or you bring a large inductive load on/off the genset (like a big motor). From the sounds of your genset, it is a beast and might be much larger than your load unless you have electric "everything" including heat in your house, shop, etc.

Best way to check the genset: do you have electric heat? Electric baseboard heaters make wonderful "resistive load banks" in that if you have them, you turn off everything else in your breaker box, leave the electric heat breakers in, then turn up the heat, take the house off street power, put in the genset and crank 'er up. Wha-la, a load bank. Then you can check the voltage, frequency and by monitoring the voltage and frequency when you flip the breaker connecting the genset to the house's electric heat, you get some small idea how well it regulates voltage and frequency as the load is presented and withdrawn.

Alternatives: an electric stove or two. An electric laundry drier. Big shop heaters. A couple of hot water heaters.

 

For a diesel that has to be "ready to go" when needed, I make sure of a few things:

1. The antifreeze will handle a major freeze and has the correct chemistry. If you haven't checked the coolant chemistry, just ask about coolant chemistry here and lots of guys can tell you the scoop on diesels and coolants.

2. You should have put anti-gel in the fuel when the weather was warm and tried to slosh-mix it in the tank. Alternatively, if you have to add fuel to the genset at some point, add anti-gel before you fill the tank.

Alternative anti-gel methods involve using some #1 diesel in with your #2 -- like a 40% #1 mix.

3. Make sure the fuel filter is clean.

4. If you have a fuel tank on the genset (esp. a large fuel tank), try to drain any water that might accumulate in the tank. If you don't have a water drain, then make sure you drain any water captured in the water trap (usually under or near the fuel filter). Water gets in the tank from condensation over time.

5. Run it when it is warm out to debug any problems. Sounds obvious, but then we all tend to put off stuff like gensets until the power outage has gone on for a half day. When you've shaken out all the issues, fill it with the anti-gel and fuel up to the top of the tank -- this reduces condensation in the empty airspace in the tank. Do what you must to prevent water intrusion into the fuel, because when you most likely need the genset, the water will be ice and be a real pain in the chops to remove.

WYDave

Posted 1/10/ 13:37 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Gee Dave

Wyoming

Actually, the only solid state device on my machines are some stacked square washers coated with varnish.

That sounds like a selenium rectifier stack. Very reliable as long as you don't allow them to get wet. If the varnish cracks, get some more on there to prevent moisture intrusion.

There are moments when I glance into the sky and wonder what the hell makes that bluetooth hanging from everyone's ear necessary?

Franz, Franz, Franz. Tsk, tsk. Has a young[er] whippersnapper like me got to 'splain the facts of life to you?

That stupid bluetooth earbud is there to serve the same purpose that the stupid phony cellphone antennas did on cars in the early 80's: to make you look "kewl" so you can get some action from the ladies.

Go try it. Get one of those fancy earbuds (it doesn't have to function), stuff it into your ear and see if you don't get some attention from the Mrs.

 

Edited by NVDave 1/10/ 13:45

Franz©

Posted 1/10/ 13:57 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: 3 questions

As I poorly understand computers, they will handle a lot of crap thrown at them since the power supply first changes the incoming AC to DC and minor AC voltages. I run mine on my generator with no problems, and chances of damage are pretty minimal because I have a UPS ahead of the computer anyhow.

The primary consideration in power coming from a genset is frequency, not voltage. It will become particularly noticable with the newer oil burners when the misfrequency causes failures of the AC controled timer. I learned this the hard way.

Your KATO set is and was a cadillac, built so well that the company put itself out of business. There are many KATOs still running on Antarctica, although they are currently being replaced, because parts are getting scarse, and governmentthink can't accomodate the problem any way other than total unit replacement.

Frequency meters often lie, especially analog and digital meters. The best meter ever invented is the $4- analog electric clock. Run the clock from the genset for a 10 minute period on your Timex, and see if the 2 times are different. This is best done with a load on the genset, since machines are usually set up to run fast unloaded to minimize frequency instability when a load is slammed onto a machine.

Exercizing a machine accomplishes a couple things. First, it theoreticly drives off moisture, both in the windings and in the crankcase. Exercize really needs to be done under load to be effective. One of the most cost effective load banks is an electric heater. A lot of them turn up in auctions around here, and can be had cheap because of our electric rates. I'd be willing to bet the bank itself in your KATO isn't damaged itself, and the problem is more one of a bad relay or contactor in the load bank circuit.

As far as appliances getting damaged by a genset is concerned, the most frequent damage I see is to refridgeration compressors restarting on autotransferr systems. The failure usually occurrs because the compressor trys to start against a head of liquid. It's best to retard the restart of any refridgeration compressor for 10 minutes, but nobody wants to do that.

Your Ranger 8 will work, but I'd keep it in reserve for situations like oil changes on the KATO or the tractor. The AC coming from a Ranger 8 is filthy, and the machine screams at rpm beating itself to death. Bob Blue

Posted 1/10/ 14:23 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Older Onan if you can find/afford one

Good to hear Dave and NC talk about the RPM generators. Mine is a vintage Military PE-95K generator made by Okeef Merritt. Industrial Jeep engine coupled to a 12.5KVA generator ( 2 -110VAC windings at 100Amp, series together, 220VAC at 50 amps. Fully governed engine at RPM. Weight 1,400 lbs. I have seen similiar units come up on E-bay. In a recent government lidquidation sale were 3 mobile woodworking trailers, enclosed generator set, radiial arm saw and field lighting, total run time 300 hours, $450.00 bid took them all. Had same specs, 12.5 KVA, single phase, RPM. There were 2 in North Michigian like mine that went on e-bay cheap but they were 600 miles from me. Two winters ago, ice storm, 48 hours staight, non stop run, whole house, hot water heaters, electric range, fuel oil heat. Fuel tank was a 50 gallon drum full of gas setting 100 feet from the genset which is kept in the shop and house service feeds underground from shop. These units have oil pressure and hot water protects and will auto shut down if either fails. These sets come up for sale occasionaly and even one at a Sherrif sale of a marijunana growing operation being done in an enclosed barn. Have had mine 37 years and used it about 10 times to keep the house going. If you see or hear of one go look at it, The worse case problem could be, mice ate up the generator wiring insulation or a rod thru the block.
Bob Ohio plowboy

Posted 1/10/ 14:54 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: Anti gel

Brazilton KS

Brazilton KS

I am speculating a little here.  

 

Based on "surplus from some airforce base" and "White diesel" I'm going to suggest investigating what fuels that generator can use.   I'm betting JP8 is on the list, and it is good for something like -40o F  not to mention supposedly being stable for storage for ridiculous periods of time.

Greg Stremel

Posted 1/10/ 19:02 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Thanks for the information

Want more information on 800 kw generator? Feel free to contact us.

Southwest Missouri

Some of the things I was doing, just not sure if I was right. I think I will fire it up this weekend and see what happens. Better to find out now rather than when the power goes out.

I do have electric heat in my office. I will use that as the load. I will take Franz's advice and trouble shoot the resistive load on the generator unit. It would be handy to put a load on the generator without having to reset umpteen digital clocks.

Thanks for all the advice. Franz©

Posted 1/10/ 20:12 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Gee Dave

Beleive me Dave, I am conversant with Sylenium stacks.

Phoney antennas, I don't need no damn phoney antenna, already have both UHF & VHF on the roof, and neither helps with the wimmen one bit.
Of course, with what's left of the gray hair, and the Santa beard, I get away with hittin the hot young dollies like you wouldn't believe. They actually respond well and think it's cute. I see no point in waiting to be a Dirty Old Man when I can get away with it now.

As far as impressin wimmen with car phones, that crap got tired by when I looked at the bill for the damn . The good part about those phones was you could clone em with jumper wires.

Lawn Nazi got one of them blue tooth things with her new . I think it's in the bottom of her satchel along with the rest of the stuff she hauls as support equipment for the 20 girl Scout Troop. She got real pissed when she had to recharge it the first time. Either the rechargin or the pickin it off the floor every time she adjusted her glasses eliminated the need for the bluetooth. It couldn't have had anything to do with me callin her Lt Ohurah.

Back in the late 80s, when the the brick portables were "to die for" I managed to get my hands on one of the fake display units. I stuck a couple biscuits in the housing, and had my Doberman carry it around. Now, that did attract a lot of interesting comments from babes, and the Dobie made out like a bandit.

Personally, the best chic magnet I ever had was a Lola ragtop with built in rollbar. It taught me that the babes the car attracted weren't worth talking to. They actually thought I was going to spend my toy money on them. I tell ya, that car and I disappointed more wimmen than Jenny Craig disappointed fat wimmen. Franz©

Posted 1/10/ 20:28 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Thanks for the information

Unless that machine has a HUGE housing, it may not actually have the load resistors on board. They should look like the cast iron grates for a propane grill if they are on board, or electric heat elements.

One of the most fun jobs I was ever on was load bank testing for a celular outfit. All the sets were on rooftops, between 10 and 17 stories up. The load bank weighed about 900 pounds, and was equipped with "convenient" wheels (cheap lawnmower wheels) to get it to the roof.
The genius who bid the job, actually got enough money and had the bull crew set up for the weekend operation. The job was supposed to go from h on Saturday till Sunday, because they didn't want us moving the bank thru occupied office buildings.

When I got to the first job, the bulls had the bank up 7 floors of stairtower. The security guard didn't have a key for the freight elevator. I did. When we finished that test, the next one was a few miles away, so the bulls loaded the bank back onto the truck, and headed over to meet me. I suggested it would be a lot easier to just carry a handline to the roof, and drop it down to haul up the quadplex in the back of my truck, and leave the bank on the ground. The bulls were pissed at me for thinking and saving them labor. Six rooftops later, they loved me, because we all got bonuses for early completion.

Unfortunately, the cell carrier also got smart, and specified my way of doing the job the next time it was bid, and we didn't get the job. The lowballer who did lost his tail doing it though, because he didn't think the job thru and set up a reel. Jon Hagen

Posted 1/10/ 22:26 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: Load resistors ?

Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND

Hagen Brothers farms,Goodrich ND

About 30 years I was in the back room of a little "under financed" generator sales outfit. I noticed this odd looking contraption consisting of a barrel behind a protective wood cage,with several rod like electrodes suspended above it by a cable winch. Heavy cables were connected to the electrodes.
I asked them what that thing was for ? They said it was the load resistor to load test generators. They said the barrel was full of salt water, the more electrode in the barrel,the higher the load.
I would like to have seen that in operation. I wonder how long till the brine was at a rolling boil ? seems I remember about 6 electrodes in a 55 gal drum. Have you guys seen anything like that in use. Greg Stremel

Posted 1/10/ 22:59 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: load resistors

Southwest Missouri

They are part of the rig. They are mounted by the radiator. There are 3 circuit breakers by each. I talked to the dealer-repair man who bought it as surplus and sold it to the guy who lost it to the bank (which sold it to me). He said it all worked when he had it. He would not give anymore information. He wanted me to pay him to drive over and look at it. Can't say I blame him, but I'm too cheap to pay someone 3 hours windshield time unless I can not do the job (with some expert advice from this board :)) Franz©

Posted 1/11/ 02:46 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: Re: Generator Questions/opinions

Greg, I may be able to walk you thru it, especially if you have the diagrams and can them to me. Worst case, I may have to pull information from my bud in Alaska who spent last winter playin with KATOs. The info on those machines is hard to come by.

Jon, the old iron grid in the salt brine trick was around well into the 80s, and you can believe me when I tell you that you do NOT want to be around whan that contraption is in use. Most of the ones I've seen were made from junk laying around, and a real good way to get yourself hurt. Back in the 60s, I worked in a shop where the tank was in an enclosed room, and they stood on the ceiling lifting the grids in and out with a block & tackle. The grids were stolen sewer grates, and they couldn't understand why I refused to pull on the rope barehanded hauling grates up and down. There wasn't even an insulated link between the movers and the ropefall. Their representations that they did it that way for years without any problem didn't impress me one bit.

OSHA has supposedly eliminated the use of saltwater banks. I hope they have.

Climate emergencies and power failures are frequent occurrences, which means it's best to stay prepared for them. Power outages and blackouts are inconvenient and dangerous. With storms and power grid failures becoming more common, you can often lose power for long periods of time, cutting you off from the rest of the world. Home generators can help remedy that. 

Due to an increase in strong storms and natural disasters along with an aging power grid, the threat of blackouts seems more urgent than ever. It's good to have some power backup in these extreme scenarios. It can be critical especially for those in remote locations or with special medical needs.

There's a dizzying selection of home generators that can keep the electricity flowing with a price range that's just as broad.

You don't want to overspend on more power than you could ever possibly want, and you also want to avoid a generator that can't deliver the electricity you need when it matters most. To help you navigate this hidden universe of personal power generation, we've put together this extensive buying guide to help assess your own needs and better evaluate your options.

If you're looking for other options, consider the advancements in home backup batteries. When paired with solar panels, they can keep the lights on for days.

What is a home generator?

A generator is an appliance that can supply electricity for your home, your business or when you're on the go. Think of them as your own little power plant. Not all generators function completely independent of public infrastructure, though. Some will require a functioning natural gas hookup for fuel. 

You might think of a generator as a loud, stinky engine you can plug into. While these machines certainly still exist, there's now much more variety available. There are even products marketed as generators that have no engine at all. 

Safety concerns

Before choosing a generator, it's important to understand the safety considerations involved. Generator exhaust contains carbon monoxide that, when improperly ventilated, can build up and poison people.

"Never run the generator in enclosed spaces, as they produce exhaust no different than your car or power tools and, that's not good for anyone due to CO poisoning," said Christopher Haas, a licensed master electrician and owner of Haas & Sons Electric. "Even so, we recommend a portable CO detector to be certain exhaust doesn't find its way to your living quarters. These can be purchased easily online for infrequent use, but I recommend installing CO detectors in your home anyways, so place a wall unit near your garage year-round."

About 70 people die each year from carbon monoxide poisoning from portable generators alone, according to the US Consumer Product Safety Commission.

Operate your generator away from your living space (at least 20 feet from any enclosed space people might enter). You can also find generators certified to mitigate the risk with features like carbon monoxide sensors and automatic shutoffs.

Types of generators

The basic types of generators include larger, permanent generators meant to power an entire home in the case of an emergency and smaller portable generators that can be used for smaller homes, RVs or work sites. These typically run off propane or gasoline. There's also a category of products marketed as solar or "fuel-less" generators that are essentially compact battery banks that can be connected to solar panels. 

"Obviously you don't want to bring a petrol generator into your house," explained Mike Murphy, owner of PrepSOS, which sells generators and other emergency preparedness products. "But the smaller solar generators like the Bluetti or Ecoflow you can bring in your house just to run your fridge or power your laptop or something like that."

Here's a close look at some of the main types of home generators.

Portable generator

A portable generator, as the name suggests, is one that's easily portable. These generators often have wheels, making them easy to move around to deliver electricity anywhere. Even smaller models may be handheld rather than on wheels, making them even more mobile. Portable generators usually run on gasoline and tend to be more affordable than standby generators.

Inverter generator

An inverter generator is similar to a portable generator in that it's smaller and easier to transport. But inverter generators tend to be even lighter than a standard portable generator. They are also quieter, which can make them suitable for a wider range of activities, including camping and other activities. 

They also have an on-board inverter that delivers household appliance-ready 120-volt AC power. Though most louder, open-frame portable generators also can deliver AC power, so it's a bit of a misnomer. When you buy an inverter generator, you're really paying a little more for a device that's quieter and compact.

Standby generator

A standby generator is a more permanent solution than a portable generator. It's larger, considerably more expensive and permanently installed at your home or business. When your power goes out, the standby generator automatically turns on. Rather than gasoline, standby generators are often fueled by propane, and can also be powered by natural gas.

According to Haas, the licensed electrician we spoke with, standby generators eliminate many of the safety concerns associated with portable generators. And while they're most expensive, it could be an option if safety is your top priority.

Solar generator

Solar generators stretch the definition a bit. They aren't engines that convert some fuel to electricity; they're portable batteries that can charge via portable solar panels (or just by plugging them into the wall). Since you can charge them with just the sun, you won't have to worry about running out of fuel.

Whole home battery backups

Home batteries provide an alternative to generators. These batteries are electric, so there's no gasoline or carbon monoxide involved. They're installed directly on your home (inside or outside) and store energy that your home can use during an outage. When the grid outage is over, the battery pulls power from the grid to charge back up again. And paired with solar panels and the right inverter, they can recharge for use through extended outages. 

How much do generators cost?

Whole home generators capable of producing up to 20 kilowatts range from $10,000 to $15,000, including installation and hooking them up to gas lines, according to Murphy. He said portable generators can range from $1,500 to $3,000 for one big enough to power a whole home. 

For solar plus storage systems, you can pay between $15,000 to $60,000 for a complete system that includes enough panels to run your home and charge the battery in an extended blackout situation. Smaller, portable solar generators that can power just a couple of devices can range from a few hundred dollars to a few thousand. It's possible to find smaller generators in all categories that are less expensive but produce less energy. 

What to consider when comparing home generators 

There's a lot to consider when buying a generator. Below, we'll talk about some of the most important considerations that can help you make your decision.

Power requirements

One of the most important considerations when choosing a generator is the amount of power you need. You can likely answer this question by considering what you'll be using the generator for. Portable generators produce less power and may be suitable for powering a few small things. On the other hand, a standby generator could power your entire home.

"When weighing the options for a generator, you need to consider and tally what appliances you consider mandatory for the continuation of services." Haas said. "A refrigerator needs about 600 watts, your sump pump (helpful for flood-prone regions) needs about 1,300 to 2,150 watts to start and about 800 to 1,000 watts to run. For those in winter regions, a portable heater may need up to 1,500 watts. Small devices like our phones charging only require 10 watts, so they're not a concern compared to the big appliances that you'll have to factor in and gauge what's right for your needs."

Appliance Wattage requirementAir conditioner 500-2,000Dryer 1,800-6,000Microwave 600-1,500Refrigerator 300-800Space heater 700-TV 50-300

Some of the biggest power hogs in any household are likely to be anything that modifies temperature, whether it's an air conditioner, electric stove or electric heater. Be sure to look for a generator that can handle these big loads, or think about nonelectric alternatives like a propane stove or wood fireplace. 

Common uses

It's not just about how much power you need your generator to produce, but also what you'll be using it for. Choosing a generator to power your home in an outage is very different from choosing one to take on a camping trip. Remember, standby generators are installed permanently at your home and provide backup electricity during an outage. A portable generator, on the other hand, can be taken with you on the go. For even more portability, you might choose an inverter generator that is lighter and makes less noise or a solar generator.

Fuel source

There are generally three different ways you can fuel your generator. The choices available to you will depend on the type of generator you choose and the specific model. First, gasoline is most often used to fuel portable generators. Propane can be used to fuel both standby generators and portable generators. Finally, natural gas can be used to fuel standby generators, but isn't available for portable generators.

New backup and portable power sources may not require fuel at all. Home backup batteries and solar generators simply store electricity for you to use later.

Budget 

The generator you choose will also ultimately depend on your budget. Remember that standby generators are more expensive, while portable generators are generally more affordable.

Other features

Before choosing the right model for you, consider which features are most important to you and which you can live without. Here are a few features to look out for in generators:

• Automatic CO shutoff: For fossil fuel-powered generators, an automatic carbon monoxide shutoff can kill the engine if dangerous levels of the poisonous gas are measured. It shouldn't take the place of safe operating procedures, however.
• Electric start: Rather than requiring you to pull-start the engine, an electric start simply requires that you push a button to start your generator. Battery-based generators will start with a button, if they require anything at all.
• Automatic start: If your generator is intended to power your home in a power outage, you may want an automatic start. It will automatically turn on your generator if your home's power goes off.
• Fuel gauge: When your generator has a fuel gauge, you can easily glance at it to see how much gasoline or propane is left so you know when it's time to refuel.
• Multiple outlets: Having multiple outlets on your portable generator allows you to run more than one device at a time.
• Low-oil shutoff: This feature protects your generator from damage by automatically turning it off if the oil dips below a certain level.

Do you need a transfer switch?

A transfer switch is simply a sensor and switch that physically switches your home's source of power in the case of a blackout. Some generators and inverters have transfer switches built in, or they can be a stand-alone component incorporated into your home's breaker box, meter or grid tie-in. This can be a key part of any back-up system, especially if you need to keep your power on even when you aren't around. 

Maintaining your generator

No matter what generator you choose, it's important that you regularly maintain it to ensure that it runs well and safely when you need it.

"You have to service these generators annually so if you need them in an emergency you can rely on them," Haas said.

First, it's important that you check and change the oil in your generator. It's recommended that you check the oil before using it and change the oil every 100 hours or so (though it should be earlier for a new generator). While you're checking the oil, also take the time to check the filters and the spark plug to ensure they're in good shape.

Next, avoid letting your generator sit for too long without being used. Running your generator helps to burn off moisture and recharge the battery. And when you aren't planning to use it for more than a few weeks, it should be run dry so it's not sitting with fuel in the lines. Finally, be sure to store your generator properly in a way that it's protected.

"You shouldn't store your generator outdoors, but if you had to, please don't operate it with any sort of green debris on it," Haas said. "Dead leaves, pine needles, and more can find their way into the unit and when it fires up they can lead to fires."

The bottom line

There's a lot to consider when choosing the right generator. But if you take into consideration all of the information above, you'll have an easier time finding the right generator model for you. If a generator is too noisy, you might opt for a portable solar power station.

Generator FAQs

How big of a generator do I need to run my house?

Determine the maximum amount of combined wattage your appliances are ever likely to demand at the same time, including surge wattages, and size your generator accordingly.

What is the average cost to have a whole house generator installed?

It depends on the needs of your house. The installed cost of a 20-kilowatt generator could fall between $10,000 and $15,000. 

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